Curse

DarkSpirit · Aug 04, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

There are not many other good pot skills under restoration. What you can try is to make some of them into N/Mo and use monk's healing. That way you can access hex removal skills too. I am still refining my own 6-heroes build.

You can also make a Discord N/E warder if you like.

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 04, 2008, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

The only problem for me has been, 2 assassin's promise players with those skills and the 6 discord necros can still fail in hm missions or against some heavy pressure.

Because they pretty much have 0 hex removal, and they all drop their pots at the same time which results in like a 50-60 heal and then none of them having a pot for the next batch of damage.

1 AP player + 3 Discords already drops stuff fast....6 Discords + 2 AP's sounds alittle overkill. 1 AP is enough if you're just trying to meet the req fast and easy. If the 2nd person isn't making good use of AP, drop it. Make room for one or two dedicated healers so they don't have their atts spread too much into Death Magic and their elite being taken up by Discord. More Discords isn't always a good thing. N/Rt's arn't the only healing option either. I've H/H'd tons of HM areas/missions with 3 N/Mo Discords. Use a basic WoH monk in your setup. If that isn't enough, add another monk, or use a dedicated Restor Rit/Nec.

I can't really comment much since I can't see any of your builds

distilledwill · Aug 04, 2008, 07:41 AM // 07:41

I have to say, I'm a convert. I decided to try the Discord team this weekend and by gum, its pretty amazing. Over the weekend I sweeped through every explorable in the crystal desert as well as perdition rock, the sage lands, Gandara the Moon Fortress and spearhead peak. Apart from feeling exhausted by the end of it I was impressed about how effective discord is at spiking down targets. (I was also suprised that Perdition Rock was probably the easiest zone of the lot. Barr the Arid Sea - I went from the Crystal Overlook so I had 8 players.)

Washi · Aug 04, 2008, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

There are not many other good pot skills under restoration.

are you serious?

[skill]Pure Was Li Ming[/skill]

DarkSpirit · Aug 04, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

are you serious?

[skill]Pure Was Li Ming[/skill]

And why do I need that when I already have [[Recovery] and multiple copies of [[Mend Body and Soul]?

Turbobusa · Aug 04, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Not really.
You can even take foul feast and it will be much more usefull than Li ming.
If you're having problems with party wide condition degen while carrying life + kaolai x2 we can't help you.

As for the N/E idea I already tried that and it is fairly correct with weakness spam + cheap hexes + unsteady ground.

DarkSpirit · Aug 05, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

So now you guys sayin its redundant to remove up to 24 conditions with one pot? oh ok, it's more useful if they waste their time spamming condition removals when they could spam discord, fine.

The power of the discord build is not because of its excellent condition removal, but its heals and damage. Heals because Discord has such a fast recharge, so it doesn't need any other damage skills besides the supporting hexes and condition inflicting skills.

Having multiple copies of spike heals from the restoration line, helps to maintain the health of the party. Even if Li Ming is useful to get rid of multiple conditions for the party, I would still rather have more heals and Kaolai provides that while protecting the healer at the same time. I would only consider Li Ming in special circumstances.

Even if I dont need so many copies of Kaolai, I would rather replace them with the many spike heals from the restoration line since there is no rule that says your N/Rts must each carry a pot. Multiple Mend Body and Soul gives me the heals and condition removal I would need and Recovery synergize well with Spirit Light and MBAS too instead of depending only on Life.

Furthermore there are only very few conditions worth removing like Blind and Weakness on physicals and the rare Daze on casters. These can be easily Foul Feast or Mend away with some micro-managing with the faster recharging MBAS and Foul Feast, the rest can be spike healed through even if you dont remove them every 20s with Li Ming. What is the point of removing all conditions if you dont have enough heals to stay alive? So heals and protect are more important. I dont see the point in replacing a healing/protect skill like Kaolai with a condition removing skill like Li Ming to remove even more condition (but without replacing the heals) since I am surviving well with Discordway even without Li Ming. The latest sabway doesn't need Li Ming to do well too ever since Sab replaced it with Foul Feast.

Washi · Aug 05, 2008, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

stuff

I didnt say conditions are dangerous, mostly they're not. Imagine your party gets diseased. Your necros will start spamming mbas for no reason while they could spam discord instead. Discord team has more than enough healing, you can spare this one skill spot to give your heros more time to actually deal damage.

But if you prefer to kill slower, go ahead.

Edit by Snipe: Removed Flame.

Turbobusa · Aug 05, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Mend body and soul has a 3 sec recharge, 3/4 cast, 3/4 after cast, giving 1.5 seconds.
Discord 1sec cast + 3/4 aftercast, you get roughly 2 seconds so you have about 1s window before MBaS recharges giving:
MBaS > Discord > wand or 1sec cast spell > MBaS > Discord and so on.

You can spam MBaS and kill just as fast.I see why you would want to take li ming but I don't think it is needed except as I said in condition very heavy areas where what you say does apply.
Otherwise heroes are fast enough to catch desease before it spreads too much from my experience.

DarkSpirit · Aug 05, 2008, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

I didnt say conditions are dangerous, mostly they're not. Imagine your party gets diseased. Your necros will start spamming mbas for no reason while they could spam discord instead. Discord team has more than enough healing, you can spare this one skill spot to give your heros more time to actually deal damage.

Disease normally doesn't kill me. And degen is not immediately healed by heroes unless it drops your health to a low enough level. MBAS can be cast later that removes the condition and heals at the same time which makes sense for degen conditions. Heroes could have used Li Ming for just bleeding and while Li Ming is in its long 20s recharge, disease may happen then they have to rely on MBAS anyway.

I can also let the degen condition run for awhile without interrupting Discord spamming, with Recovery and a drop of Kaolai whatever harm disease had done is healed back.

Quote:

But if you prefer to kill slower, go ahead.

Li Ming doesn't make me kill any faster either and it takes a potential healing spot from the bar. At least Foul Feast and MBAS removes conditions and grants healing. What happens if you use Li Ming to remove disease then your warrior is blinded after that? You would still need MBAS to remove blind anyway, or wait for another 20s for Li Ming to recharge.

I would only consider Li Ming is areas that are common with party wide conditions.

Seventh_Samurai · Aug 06, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Well, it's about damn time I finally report back to a thread I started a while ago...

I played a slightly modded sabway for quite a while. Got my guardian on cantha, tyria, and finished all of the HM dungeons in EotN (admittedly I had some done before using sabway, and those I didn't redo).

Then I tried discord... Wow!

Needless to say, I am also a convert. Looking the the feedback, there are some suggested tweaks that I have to try, but overall it's a very good build. Still, that doesn't mean sabway is bad by any means, just discord appears to be faster in almost, if not every, situation I've been in.

Glad to see this thread still going

Edit: For those curious, here's what I run for discord. Let me know if you have any ideas for improvements.

[Mo/A Me;OwcU003CDvSBE1DGNLQriylyiyEA]

Variants: Instead of Dwayna's Sorrow take [Shield of Absorption] or [Caltrops]. If [Lightbringer's Gaze] is useful in the area, take out Great Dwarf Weapon or Summon Ice Imp.

[N/Rt healer;OAhjUoGa4SxMZMTOSTDTjTJgXMA]
[N/Rt condition spreader/hexer;OAhkUwG5RGOTMzO8JQEshdXVN5C]

Variants: Take [Parasitic Bond] instead of Suffering.

[N/* MM;OABDQTxGTxMHVVBKgoB4BKCVVA]

Stat Runes:

Me: Prot +1 +1; Heal + 1
Healer: SR +1 +2; Death +1
Hexer: Death +1 +1; Curse +1; SR +1
MM: Death +1 +3; SR +1; Blood +1 (optional)

If you're wondering why I take Great Dwarf Weapon, it's because the other person I usually run the discord team with is a paragon (playing Imbagon w/ [Awe], [Wild Throw], and ["For Great Justice"] while dropping Spear of Lightning and Anthem of Flame), and he takes care of healers. Alternatively, you can slap it on a minion. Oh, and the Imbagon takes the same hero builds that I use, with the exception of [Recovery] instead of Life on the healer rit (unless we're doing a 4/4 or 5/3 split for certain missions/quests), the hex/condition necro takes [Barbs] and [Parasitic Bond] instead of the 2 hexes that are on mine, and the MM takes [Putrid Flesh] instead of Blood of the Master.

Only one person w/ Aegis, you say? Not a problem! When using Assassin's Promise, it's easy to maintain, plus it lets me spam Pain Inverter like there's no tomorrow while quickly recharging my imp, should it die.

In the future I'm also going to try having the person who's healer has Life replace his/her healer's Discord with [Icy Veins], allowing them to not put any points into Death Magic (maxing Restoration and Soul Reaping and using only a minor SR rune on the headpiece) and doing more damage on the death of a target.

Washi · Aug 06, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

In the future I'm also going to try having the person who's healer has Life replace his/her healer's Discord with [Icy Veins], allowing them to not put any points into Death Magic (maxing Restoration and Soul Reaping and using only a minor SR rune on the headpiece) and doing more damage on the death of a target.

IV is terrible in HM because it's not armor ignoring. Waste of a skill slot not to mention its elite.

DarkSpirit · Aug 06, 2008, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

...

If you are a monk, you should bring some hex removal. You also dont have to bring the same condition skills as your friend's hero. And 2 MMs (you and your friend's hero)? Maybe an overkill for BoTM.

I would make sure all the hexes and conditions are different otherwise heroes would either not cast them or override them.

IV is also meh..

Arkantos · Aug 06, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And why do I need that when I already have [[Recovery] and multiple copies of [[Mend Body and Soul]?

Because when facing condition heavy foes (like GWEN Mandragors), removing 3 conditions from every ally within earshot is going to do a lot more than removing 1 condition from 1 ally.

DarkSpirit · Aug 06, 2008, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Because when facing condition heavy foes (like GWEN Mandragors), removing 3 conditions from every ally within earshot is going to do a lot more than removing 1 condition from 1 ally.

I always have the choice to switch to Li Ming if I want to. But for most areas, I prefer more condition removing heals like Foul Feast and MBAS to a condition removal skill that doesn't provide heals, and comes with a 20s recharge, hoping that the hero would not waste it.

Darkside · Aug 06, 2008, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

IV is terrible in HM because it's not armor ignoring. Waste of a skill slot not to mention its elite.

I'm inclined to agree... I actually tried it on Liva and it's wonderful in nm but in hm the monsters AL is just too high and the damage just isn't there.

Seventh_Samurai · Aug 06, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

I'm inclined to agree... I actually tried it on Liva and it's wonderful in nm but in hm the monsters AL is just too high and the damage just isn't there.

It's not the damage from the application of IV that I care about, it's the "if target foe dies all nearby foes are struck for 104 cold dmg" (remembering that by then everyone nearby should have cracked armor). Even if you only hit 2 other mobs with it (plus the first mob w/ the small initial damage), I think you'd make out, especially on a healer who can, as a result, have stats less spread out and less time spent casting on enemies.

Edit: And it has the minor added benefit of being a hex. Will still have to test and see if it's worthwhile though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you are a monk, you should bring some hex removal.

And what hexes are actually dangerous in PvE? Not many... If I'm going to a place with something I know is going to cause problems, then sure, but otherwise, hexes aren't really much of a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And 2 MMs (you and your friend's hero)? Maybe an overkill for BoTM.

Ah, my mistake, only one of them has it. The other one should take [Putrid Flesh]. Updated original post ^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I would make sure all the hexes and conditions are different otherwise heroes would either not cast them or override them.

There isn't a whole lot that does AoE condition for N/Rt aside from what I have. It might seem overkill to have two w/ enfeeble/weaken, but usually one of them casts a hex while the other drops conditions, or they drop different conditions. Not to mention enemies usually have some sort of condition removal if they have any healers in their group, so it's nice to have a backup (or when heroes get D-shotted/diverted). I was considering rotting flesh but the 3 sec cast time really, really cripples it, otherwise it'd be in there. Would rather just sac a minion using Putrid Flesh to get disease on them.

DarkSpirit · Aug 06, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

And what hexes are actually dangerous in PvE? Not many... If I'm going to a place with something I know is going to cause problems, then sure, but otherwise, hexes aren't really much of a problem.

Some hexes are more of an annoyance while others are really dangerous monster hexes so that would depend on the area and the professions that you bring with you.

Quote:

There isn't a whole lot that does AoE condition for N/Rt aside from what I have. It might seem overkill to have two w/ enfeeble/weaken, but usually one of them casts a hex while the other drops conditions, or they drop different conditions.
Not to mention enemies usually have some sort of condition removal if they have any healers in their group, so it's nice to have a backup (or when heroes get D-shotted/diverted).

How often do you face a problematic mob with D-shot and diversion in pve? Weaken Armor recharges in 5s while enfeebling blood recharges at 8, so even if they are removed, you can recast them. Bringing multiple copies of the same hexes and conditions is just gimping yourself. Instead of casting 2 hexes from 2 characters, you cast 1 hex because the other character has the same hex. With 2 hexes, you still have the other hex if one hex is removed. Similarly for conditions. With multiple hexes and conditions, you can be more certain that Discord spam would be uninterrupted rather than having to recast them when they are removed or expired.

Quote:

I was considering rotting flesh but the 3 sec cast time really, really cripples it, otherwise it'd be in there.

Still better than bringing multiple copies of a fast recharge condition skill. You are not synergizing with the extra heroes, sounds like you are just making a copy of them.

Darkside · Aug 06, 2008, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

It's not the damage from the application of IV that I care about, it's the "if target foe dies all nearby foes are struck for 104 cold dmg" (remembering that by then everyone nearby should have cracked armor). Even if you only hit 2 other mobs with it (plus the first mob w/ the small initial damage), I think you'd make out, especially on a healer who can, as a result, have stats less spread out and less time spent casting on enemies.

Yah I was referring to [all] the damage the initial attack damage as well as the conditional to all nearby foes. I'm not sure of the exact numbers for AL in hm so I'm not sure exactly how effective it would be in combination with cracked armor I guess you can get back to us after you do a little testing.

distilledwill · Aug 06, 2008, 11:40 AM // 11:40

If I were in a team with myself running discord and a friend running say 1/2 more discord spikers and a couple of N/Rt healers I think I'd like one of them to have [[Icy Veins] in order to get the AoE damage upon death, In combination with [[Putrid Bile] (which is in my discord build) its could be quite effective.